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Doc, I apologize, all of my measurements are in decimal inches. PRS gives their measurements in either decimal or fractional inches, I'm in the US and use their ancient measuring system.

https://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/su ... itar_setup

I'll also add that in your other thread about the shape of relief I specifically pointed you to a setup thread where I talk about every aspect of setup and how they interrelate. I'm very specific in telling the readers that I work in decimal inches and all of my specifications are give that way. I also talk about where those numbers come from...

I apologise to you too! I got a bit confused with the measurements! Thank you for pointing out that your measurements are 'imperial', NOT metric!

Would you please confirm the below conversions and advise on saddles?

Freeman @ 1st. fret:
.014" = 0.35mm
.014" = 0.35mm
.015" = 0.38mm
.016" = 0.40mm
.017" = 0.43mm
.018" = 0.45mm

Freeman @ 12th. fret:
0.060" = 1.52mm
0.065" = 1.65mm
0.070" = 1.77mm
0.075" = 1.90mm
0.080" = 2.03mm
0.085" = 2.15mm

Freeman relief @ 7th. fret:
0.0003" = 0.008mm
0.0005" = 0.013mm

PRS 'SE' floating bridge height:
1/16" = 0.062 (dec.) = 1.59mm

What would be the starting point for the saddles please? (i.e. height)

Correct procedure during setup?
Set:
1. relief
2. bridge height
3. saddles
4. keep in tune & cut nut slots
5. intonation

many thanks!

..."you learn by your mistakes!" ~ positive & constructive.

PRS says: "The saddles should be adjusted so that the height of the string at the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the string is 2/32", (1.59mm)."

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drugstoredir2014.com

Set your action at the 12th to 4/64th" for the high e and then progressively higher until you get to the low e which is set at 4.5/64th". Pardon the combining of a decimal and a fraction this is how we exchange information on specs in our busy guitar repair shop.

The action is the second last thing you do with the sequence being 1) relief, 2) nut slots and yours are still too high and PRS's specs are wrong and designed for a f*crtory not a player. They don't want to pay for skilled labor so they don't take nut slots very low because it can blow the nut. Most manufactures error on the side of not setting up the instrument well. Collings is an exception.

So to start over again... 1) relief, 2) nut slots 3) set action height, 4) play every note at this action and relief including full step bends where we do full step bends and if no choking or fretting out, 5) set intonation. Intonation and action should be set in the playing position with the guitar in your lap. It can make a difference with rubber necked instruments.

If this sequence is followed and all steps are done well there will be no need for redoing anything or back tracking, next.

Be careful with nut slot cutting on PRS's with the black plastic crap nut. The material contains a lubricant and will not cut as you file and then all of a sudden the lubricant is cleared and your file cuts aggressively. It's very easy to go too low with this. In addition this material which sucks for nuts also stretches so it will stretch out of the way of the file and then sure as shootin close back up and bind on a string causing a "ping" noise when tuning.

Black looks cool but this stuff is lousy nut material and there really is not a good black replacement except tusq of which I'm not a fan and greatly prefer quality processed, unbleached bone.

Which is the way God intended it.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Those are my target values for most guitars and players and is good starting point, and interestingly works pretty well for all guitars. If the frets are in good shape that should play well and buzz free.




Read that several times. The only thing I would add is that when you tension the strings set the trem height before you start adjusting the saddles. As long as you are measuring action at the 12th fret (some people use a different one) then any change that is needed at 12 will require twice as much change at the saddles. I like to start a little above my targets and come down.

Intonation is the last because changing action will change the intonation. Lowering action usually improves it.

I do a modified version of Hesh's full bend test. I simply fret each string at the first fret and play it. If it doesn't buzz I measure the gap at the second fret. Fret the second fret and check the gap, if it is the same or greater it won't buzz. Move up the neck and as long as the gaps are the same it won't buzz. It still might fret out on big bends, check those too. But the next fret test will bring you back to your questions about relief and fretboard contours. Its a valuable and very quick little test.

just one thing: "1) relief, 2) nut slots 3) set action height,"

what height should the bridge & saddles be when cutting the nut slots? Shouldn't the bridge & saddles be adjusted first, before nut slots?

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drugstoredir2014.com

I'd follow the advice you've received in this thread first. And to answer your question the answer is no. If the nut is cut too low the relief and saddle don't matter at all.

The strings should be off the fretboard, that's all that matters. I usually eye ball them close to where they will end up. I'm so used to doing acoustics where you start high and come down to it that I probably do the same with electrics. And yes each end has a very slight effect on the other, but it is so slight you can't measure it.

It sort of makes a difference whether I am setting up a brand new guitar from scratch or one that has been played and just needs to be tweaked. In the first case I start with zero relief under no tension (because I've just leveled and dressed the frets and they are dead flat), the nut is high because I've just laid it out and haven't started cutting slots and the action high, either because I'm making a bone saddle for an acoustic or I've cranked them up on an electric. String it up, pull some tension into the neck and take measurements./

If it is a guitar that has been played then I have a rule of thumb (which I talk about a lot in that link that I gave you). I measure everything before I touch anything, and I write it all down. I still follow Hesh's sequence - relief, nut, (trem), action, intonation, test - but the changes are much smaller and I can add my impressions (or better, the owners) by playing it. That in itself is an important consideration - if someone brings me a guitar for a "set up" I like to watch them play it and I listen to what they tell me its doing or not doing. My setup numbers please me and a lot of other people but I know that SRV would have hated them.

Last thing that I do that a shop can't. I almost always take a guitar into my house for an evening or a few days and I play it. I'll frequently tweak something after its had a chance to settle in - pickup heights are a good example. I also tell my "customers" (who are mostly my friends) to play for a few days and bring it back if there is anything that needs further work.

The saddle height does not matter when cutting the nuts slots. Set the relief and fret and hold between the 2nd and 3rd frets to observe what you need to do to the nut slot for the string clearance over the fist fret. By fretting and holding between the 2nd and 3rd frets you take the saddle height and action completely out of play making it not matter for now.

1). Set relief

2). cut nut slots

3) set action at the 12th

4). test play for buzzing and fretting out on bends at this action and relief

5). set intonation

6). Check and adjust pole piece/pickup height. Both to balance between strings and between pickups, but also to make sure that the magnetic field isn't affecting the action ("stratitus"). I usually start with the poles or p/u's a bit low and bring them up but it is case by case.

Yep there is a number 6 here and we look into #6 when we have some weird thing happening that does not make sense OR.... I see the tuner swing wildly during the intonation process (tuner picking up too many over tones because of proximity to string).

I usually don't mess with the pick-ups and it's been very, very rare that I've messed with individual pole pieces and don't see this as necessary unless again there is an unexplained problem OR you are adjusting pup balance which I do do to my own guitars but rarely to client guitars.

Folks do want me to adjust their pups on occasion and the standard answer is sure we can adjust for our reference standard amps (Bassman like Peavey 4 X 10" and Roland Jazz Chorus 2 X 12") but we are sure to tell them that YMMV since amps make all the difference in the world in pick-up balance and response.

If in question though that the magnetic pull is too strong because the pups are too physically close drop them a bit, the entire pup and I would leave individual pole pieces alone.

There are some good videos on the web about adjusting pups but it's a very individual thing and there is a lot of snake oil out here too. One of the best videos that I've seen and used for my own ThroBaks on my Les Paul is by Jon the owner of Throbak. He's detailed beyond what some may have the patience to sit though but he's a science guy and that's appreciated. Jason Lollar also has a Youtube on adjusting pups that is much more user friendly in my view but not as comprehensive as Throbak's tutorials.

I ordered some Lollar Imperials this week that will be here tomorrow for my personal SG. Going to shed the lifeless crap that came on this g*bson for a proper PAF copy and the bridge Imperial is high wind for more sizzle when rockin. I set up all my electrics the same way so the transition for me is effortless and all the controls function the same. Old school here, 50's wiring, vintage caps, etc.

The reason that I mentioned the pickups, Hesh, was that I just finished building a double neck guitar with two pups per neck. Each neck has one volume and on tone control, so "blend" is 50:50, you can also select one pup for each neck, as well as selecting one neck or both (in which case the pots for one neck are partially loading the pups on the other one. It was pretty obvious switching back and forth thru all the options that not only did each pickup need to be raised or lowered against the others, but I also needed to tweak the pole pieces on the 12 string neck to get them in balance. I play finger style (even on this monster) and I like each string to do its part.

Normally on a guitar on my bench I just pick each string with each pickup selection and make sure they sound pretty close.

Cool Freeman and no matter what anyone says ultimately picking the strings and adjusting for the sound that we hear is what it's all about. I just recommend that folks do this with their amp and equalization since that's what they are going to hear.

My style of playing does not rely on the bridge pup for the lead riffs. I may do lead on the neck pup for stuff where I want a thick tone like Stormy Monday or Tuesday's Gone, etc. So I like may own pups balanced for no volume increase between the two (or three on my Strat). Lots of folks don't like this though and want the bridge pup to have a volume increase adjusted in too.

Right, the strings ARE in tune and intonation is spot on.
The floating tremolo plate/bridge is just above 1/16" as advised by PRS themselves.
The relief is sat @ 0.25mm as advised by PRS.

12th. fret gaps:
1.55mm
1.60mm
1.70mm
1.80mm
1.90mm
2.00mm

1st. fret gaps:
0.35mm
0.37mm
0.39mm
0.41mm
0.43mm
0.45mm

...this has been triple checked yesterday and today.

However, there still seems to be a buzz on the 3rd. string ('G'), when 'open'?

Strings are "D'Addario XL Nickel 09-42 Super Light Electric Guitar Strings".

Don't understand what could be causing this issue?

The nut was replaced and re-cut!

Any suggestions and /or advice please?

NB: relief was set with strings in tune AND I laid a precision steel rule along the fretboard without strings to make sure the frets are all even - they are!

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drugstoredir2014.com

Could it be that the G string slot isn't cut at a sharp enough angle? If the nut slot doesn't fall away from the fret board you can get strange buzzes, people often refer to it as "that sitar sound". Or if the slot is too wide for the string there can be buzzing as well. My final thought, it could just be a bad G string, although this seems to be a consistent problem, and it sounds like you've changed the strings several times with the same results.

Yes, possible.

But it could be other things, too. I just had a Martin on the bench that any E caused a resonance inside the box. Turned out to be one of the many wires comprising the pickup and microphone combo. Added another of those little stick-on wire ties, and the problem was solved.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Could chase that down by playing the G at the 5th fret on the D string no?

Worth a try?
Or did I completely misunderstand the nature of the problem?

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

"If the nut slot doesn't fall away from the fret board you can get strange buzzes", can you elaborate a bit more on this please? what exactly am I looking for?

The slot is cut with a .43mm file, and the 'G' string is .41mm.

The strings that came with the guitar have been ditched and replaced only ONCE, i.e. it's the same 'G' string I have used in each fresh setup attempt. I have used 3 high 'E' strings due to snapping.

It's only a slight buzz now, only about 20% of what it was before (due to getting mixed up with imperial/metric measurements and cutting slot too low originally). It's very subtle! Kind of 'muted'.

many thanks!

_________________
drugstoredir2014.com

Mine is a semi hollow construction which is much more like an electric than an acoustic, it doesn't sound like anything in or on the guitar body itself, wires, pickups, bridge, trem. springs "ringing in sympathy" etc. Nothing lose anywhere. Definitely sounds more like something to do with the string, nut & fretboard.

Many thanks!

_________________
drugstoredir2014.com

I'm sorry if you misunderstood me Chris?

_________________
drugstoredir2014.com

I found this:

http://www.lutherie.net/nuts.html...

I didn't cut the slots like this, but just flat and straight.
The only string that is half in the slot is the low 'E' string, the rest are lower or 'buried'!
Can I sand down the top of the nut until half the string is exposed? Or get another nut and leave the slots alone (as cut by graphtech) and lower the nut by sanding down from the bottom/underneath of the nut until the pre-cut slots are the correct height above the first fret?

many thanks!

_________________
drugstoredir2014.com

No buried strings in the slot are NOT an issue and this notion of 1/2 the string in the slot is BS and many players with their style can bend a sting right out of a 1/2 depth slot. You can reduce the nut material above the strings if you want but it's not necessary. When I make a nut, when we Ann Arbor Guitars make a nut and when many graduates from a well known Lutherie school make a nut we file the nut right down so the file hits the strings sacrificing a set of strings, the old set in the nut making process. This means that the slot is the full depth of the respective string(s).

But what's REALLY important here instead of the snake oil on the Internet about 1/2 height nuts slots is the set back angle of the nut slot that you file. The slot should be:

1) Slightly wider than the string AND one gauge up in strings so the player can go heavier with strings if they want. This means that the string will not be binding in the nut slot causing unresponsive tuning and then a jump on the tuner in pitch with a "tink" sound that can be heard.

2). This is the money activity the nut slot should have a set-back angel of at least 4 degrees. I like to go a bit more like 5 - 6 degrees or even 7. On acoustics we usually shoot for 1/2 the set back angle of the head stock (often around 14 degrees). On electrics not all headstocks are set back at all such as Fender. So make the slot that you file about 5 - 6 degrees or so. If it's flat you will get a sitar tone, the buzz that I think you've been chasing all along... A nut slot that does not have enough of a break angle or has a hump filed in it encourages the vibrating wave of the string to breach the nut face and buzz as the slot rises to touch the string. This sitar sound often sounds like it's coming from the bridge but it's a nut slot and a very common thing that happens when people don't understand how to file a but slot. There has to be enough of an angle to terminate the vibrating wave of the string or that wave travels into the slot. It often throws off the intonation for that string.

3). The link you provided does describe how we determine how low to cut the slot but they wussy out and don't encourage folks to take the slot lower and the benefits of same.

You said "I didn't cut the slots like this, but just flat and straight." Not sure if you are speaking of angling the slot direction toward the tuner post of if you are saying that there is no set back angle on your slots that they are flat. If the later is true that's your buzz, sitar sound and this is classic. Search on "set-back angles" if you are interested in more information but I provided all the money point here already.

Very informative and to the point, as usual, thank you!
Luckily I haven't touched it again yet anyway!
Thanks for setting the record straight.
The angling of the nuts slots direction are NOT angled toward the tuner posts, but follow the initial pre-cut graphtech slots. But, there is no set back angle on the slots, they are more or less 'flat'.
When you mention degrees, are you assuming a 360% circle?
Does the bottom of each slot need to be 'round', or can the bottom of the slots be flat/square like the nut files profile? (Hosco/TL-NF3E).

many thanks!

_________________
drugstoredir2014.com

Great now I feel like we are actually speaking "with" each other.

OK the nut slots are not angled toward the tuners and that's how PRS does it. When we speak of "set-back" angle for nut slots the fret plane is your zero degrees or baseline. So we want the nut slots to be cut at >4 degrees away from the fret plane or a "set-back" angle. Make sense. I like more than 4 and you have that now. Less than four can cause buzz and it's highly likely that the buzz you have on or had on an open string is because of a flat nut slot. They can wear that way too.

PRS uses a horrible plastic material on the SE's for nuts, the black crap. It parts like the sea for Moses for the fret file and then when you remove the file it did not actually cut but closes back up and pinches the string. It's one of my only beefs about PRS of which I own some too. I replaced my black SE nut on my PRS with black Ram's Horn which is not much better because it's very soft in my experience but it is black....

Yes the string should be laying in a nut slot that is perhaps .001" or so larger than the string on both sides and rounded like the string on the bottom. There are those here who will argue that a V shaped nut slot is good enough for them. They're right it is good enough for them but it's not good enough for me or my many clients. A V shaped nut slot will pinch a string, cause tuning instability and even breakage with aggressive benders and trem users.

So cut the slot "set-back" the degrees we suggested to you. I use dedicated nut slot files from Stew-Mac with rounded cutting surfaces that match the gauge of the individual stings. Be sure too that not only is there that set-back angle but when using the file you are not cutting the front of the slot as less angle than the back or creating a "hump" in the spot or that can result in the sitar sound too. When I was learning to cut nut slots properly I set a small block of wood on the peg head and positioned it so that when my file was in the but slot and touching the block of wood it was around 7 degrees. Training wheels if you will.

And yes a 360 degree circle if that helps you visualize what we speak of. The fret plane is zero.

So...... do this.... please

1). Set the relief and truss rod.

2). Cut the cut slots.

3). Set action at the 12th

4). Set intonation

5). Play every note and be aggressive looking for rattle.

Pat yourself on the back and enjoy a very well set-up PRS.